tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post1391461202265822199..comments2023-07-04T07:45:47.084-06:00Comments on By the Rivers of Babylon: Video Games and Art :: Grand Theft Auto IVdcorneliushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18231288805244617924noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-38973645635174036042008-05-15T13:38:00.000-06:002008-05-15T13:38:00.000-06:00Thanks, Turner. I thought of you as I wrote it si...Thanks, Turner. I thought of you as I wrote it since it would have been fun to bounce some ideas off of you. <BR/><BR/>I like your distinction between art and spectacle. It's very helpful. I think the terms "entertainment" and "art" are often, and erroneously, used as synonyms; just because something can entertain us, or distract us, does not mean that it in anyway is beneficial or edifying for us. We can be entertained by porn, for instance; the Romans were entertained by gladiators; yet it would take quite the apologist indeed to convince me that either have artistic merits. I'm not saying that games and porn are comparable (though maybe, now that I think of it, they are) but I think as a society we should be more careful about what we call art.dcorneliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231288805244617924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-34205219318624724622008-05-15T00:27:00.000-06:002008-05-15T00:27:00.000-06:00I think you have created one of the most cogent an...I think you have created one of the most cogent and coherent arguments that I have ever read about having an intelligent perspective toward video games. I can think of only a very small handful of games that I would consider "artful" (though I do not tie that in to irony as you do), the most evident of which is The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time. The scale and wonder of that game is so huge and breathtaking at times - though I suppose that is more "spectacle" than "art". In fact, I'm not sure that the nature of video games allows for the creation of art in the genre. Perhaps one of the biggest indicators for me is that I have nearly eliminated video games from my life in the past two years. As I have pursued other interests and sought to make my hobbies "worthwhile", I have not found the time to engage in simple entertainment, but I have pursued art (the same reason that my movie, TV, and music tastes are being continually refined). If GTAIV is not art, its sole value is derived from being entertainment; if it fails to do that for you, you are correct in your neglect. Bravo.Life of Turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05023072360964889919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-12745752936115983132008-05-10T15:54:00.000-06:002008-05-10T15:54:00.000-06:00Nice post! I share the same opinion about games l...Nice post! I share the same opinion about games like GTA IV. I have friends who say, "If you want to take the game seriously and be corrupted by it, that's your choice." But the fact is that kids are impressionable! I am one! If you spend a lot of time being exposed to this type of "entertainment", you find it more acceptable. I'm one of the most liberal people I know, but when it comes to media and video games, I don't agree with some of the ideas being released into public.Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03636302710099267555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-37062702124014352582008-05-08T20:17:00.000-06:002008-05-08T20:17:00.000-06:00Flannery O'Connor is a good example of that, I thi...Flannery O'Connor is a good example of that, I think. The disconnect between her Catholic faith and the often disturbing content of her stories is practically a study in irony.<BR/><BR/>And I hear what you are saying about the conscience. When it comes to video games, it often seems like I end up playing the game that offends my conscience the least. Sometimes I just have to pass on something.dcorneliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231288805244617924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-42119045503875627402008-05-08T19:36:00.000-06:002008-05-08T19:36:00.000-06:00There's a fundamental disconnect between what happ...<I>There's a fundamental disconnect between what happens in a poem, a novel, or a film and between what the author or the text actually means.</I> (from the post)<BR/><BR/>Great point. One need only to read Flannery O'Connor stories and know something about her to realize how true this is.<BR/><BR/>As for GTAIV, I have some reservations about the activities pursued in-game. I will not say others should not play, but for me to do so would be to wound my conscience. Fortunately the gameplay is not appealing to me either.<BR/><BR/>FYI: Taliesin (on Google) = Deschain (on TaG)Taliesinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06250806687440204400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-68065152100861851792008-05-06T10:04:00.000-06:002008-05-06T10:04:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Nevishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14258856645710663582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-17513125725289415262008-05-05T11:31:00.000-06:002008-05-05T11:31:00.000-06:00It's not that I don't think I'd like it... it's th...It's not that I don't think I'd like it... it's that if I start playing I think I'll like it against my better judgment. There's no denying that it makes for some fun gaming.dcorneliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231288805244617924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-73791528287788169062008-05-05T11:04:00.000-06:002008-05-05T11:04:00.000-06:00Very well written article. My one comment is that ...Very well written article. <BR/><BR/>My one comment is that you actually haven't played the game. And it actually has a very good storyline. I'm not a fan of the series (I don't like any sandbox game, really) but I am quite intrigued by the story and the writing during the cut scenes is actually quite good. <BR/><BR/>I think you would be surprised to find you actually like the game if you would ever play it.Nevishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14258856645710663582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-61501615721081977542008-05-04T18:36:00.000-06:002008-05-04T18:36:00.000-06:00It offers some redemptive qualities. While you are...It offers some redemptive qualities. While you are a criminal, the story line does a good job of making you feel like Niko(you) is just a pawn caught up in a larger game and doing whatever it takes to survive.<BR/><BR/>I honestly think it's the free-will factor of the game that gets it in so much trouble. You are allowed to do what you want. If you wanna kill a hooker or innocent civilian you can, but It is your choice that drives the game. Which makes me angry when people like Thompson come out and say that this game forces you to these things. Which it doesn't.<BR/><BR/>Why people take him so seriously is a mystery to me, I watched the interview with him, and he says that there are graphic descriptions of oral and anal sex, which is an outright lie. I've played through the majority of the game, and nothing of that such material exists. You can go up to your girlfriend's room following a date, but see nothing. Strip clubs are even mild. The strippers have pasties on and you see partial nudity. Just like the box says.<BR/><BR/>But once again I see your point and understand where you are coming fromAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-88175053436398085662008-05-04T18:12:00.000-06:002008-05-04T18:12:00.000-06:00Hey, TinPan,I see the point that you are making, t...Hey, TinPan,<BR/>I see the point that you are making, that the narrative presents Niko as an unwilling participant. But does this absolve him, and the player, of moral responsibility? Does the narrative of IV offer you the option of not being a criminal or of just being a less murderous criminal?<BR/><BR/>I know certain things, like being able to murder the hooker you just had sex with, are not really narrative aspects of the game but are rather actions that are simply available to the player as part of this free roaming world, but I don't see how such a "moral" system is really all that moral. Players may feel like they get to chose between right and wrong but the game, GTA itself, allows for a murderous response in nearly every situation. Unless the narrative actively penalizes players who chose to kill cops and pedestrians with anything more a short police-chase mini-game, than the game itself, as an "artistic" achievement, amounts to no more than outright nihilism. Presented with the option of doing whatever you want, most gamers will spend at least some time walking around, beating up and killing pedestrians just for the hell of it... I know I have in previous versions of the game.dcorneliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231288805244617924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7747828092883694705.post-65674243161713270192008-05-04T17:30:00.000-06:002008-05-04T17:30:00.000-06:00Very well written. This is TinPanAlley by the way....Very well written. This is TinPanAlley by the way. <BR/><BR/>I will agree with the majority of your points. The games up to this point have been do what needs to be done, and don't worry about who you kill/maim/etc. while doing it. They took a step forward in this version in my opinion.<BR/><BR/>Niko the main character states throughout the game that he come to Liberty City to start over to experience the kind of life his cousin had been emailing him about. He had done some things that he was not proud of, but wanted to clean the slate. During the story Niko is unwillingly drawn back into the crime that he sought to escape by his dumb-witted cousin. It plays on the family factor heavily. As Roman, Niko's cousin is heavily in debt to some sinister groups, and Niko vows to help his cousin.<BR/><BR/>Also, new elements within the game allow you to let "hits" go free. In one instance I had to chase down a snitch for this Russian mob boss. He escapes into this construction site and accidentally slips. When you get to him, he is hanging on for dear life and begging you to help him. The game then gives you the choice to kick him to his death or help him up, I helped him up. He in return is grateful(of course) and offers to help you later in the game. This is only one of several choices you are allowed.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I think the main reason that the player will not feel that his character should go to jail is that many of the people that the protagonist has to kill are criminals themselves. Drug dealers, mob bosses, etc. I guess that might give some feeling of justice to the player. <BR/><BR/>While one mission in particular has you getting busted by a swat team, while overseeing a heroin deal. In order to escape you have to blast your way through the police force.<BR/><BR/>In closing, I think it is enough of a mix between outright violence and required violence that it doesn't step too far over the line.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com